SHORT HISTORY ON THE

8mm LEBEL ROUND

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The following is information, variations, etc. of the 8x50R Lebel cartridge I have came across in my wanderings.  My references are under the "Credits" link here and at the Berthier homepage, please check them out so that those who really deserve the credit get their just do.  Any errors or omissions are purely accidental and will be addressed if brought to my attention.  Sincerely, the author.

The Berthier was chambered to use the 8mm Lebel round, the same ammunition used by the previous Lebel rifle series.  This is a rimmed round very similar to the rimmed 11x59R French Gras round developed for the Model Mle 1874 Gras rifle and the Mle1866-74 Chassepot conversions.   Circa 1883-84, the Steyr arsenal took the 11x59R Gras and developed a smaller caliber, 8mm round for the Portuguese Government, the 8x60R Guedes (aka Kropatschek).  Both the Gras and Guedes are large capacity black-powder rounds.

In 1886, the French chemist Paul Vielle invented the first smokeless gunpowder, "Poudre B" or "B powder".  At this time, Lt. Col. Nicolas Lebel was a member of a French Military commission charged with designing a replacement for the Gras rifle.  Lt. Col Lebel considered the cartridge the essential part of the new design and put most of his energies into the design of a new and revolutionary cartridge.  Lt. Col Lebel married four cutting edge cartridge design features into his new round:  (1) a drawn brass case based upon a shortened Gras casing, (2) a solid lead core, copper jacketed bullet, (3) a small sub-caliber 8mm bullet like that used on the Guedes round, and (4) the new smokeless powder as the propellant.  The resulting round and new rifle were named after Lt. Col Lebel and first issued in 1886.

As a matter of fact, the 8mm Lebel has the distinction of being the first standard issue smokeless military round.  Now the Swiss may argue that the Rubin's round was developed prior to the Lebel and a smokeless version appeared in 1886.  The Lebel gets the "first" label over the Rubin because: (a) the Rubin round was designed and used as a black-powder round and was merely adapted to smokeless powder, and (b) the Lebel was issued just prior to the Rubins adaption.

The following is an explanation of the main types of 8x50R Lebel cartridges used in the Lebel and Berthier rifles:

    • 1886 - Original Lebel round, the Balle M.  It was a 232 grain rounded flat point with a cuppro-nickel jacketed lead core.  Velocity was 2067 feet per second.
    • 1896 - Balle D or "8mm M 1896 D".  This was a 198 grain boat-tailed spitzer made of lathe turned solid brass.  The primer pocket was altered with a large groove in the case head and a primer cover.  These were installed to prevent recoil induced cartridge detonation within the Lebel rifle's tube magazine.  Velocity was 2297 feet per second.
    • 1917 - Same as the Balle D except with a cuppro-nickel jacketed lead core bullet.
    • 1923 - Same as the Balle D except with a 194 grain, cuppro-nickel wash over lead core bullet.  In addition, the bullet had a cannelure crimping groove.
    • 1932 - Balle N or "8mm M 1932 N".  This was a 232 grain boat-tailed spitzer with a cuppro-nickel jacketed lead core and was very similar to the Balle D.   The Balle N bullet was both heavier and longer, and was also slightly larger in diameter (.325 for the Balle N verses .323 for the Balle M and D).  Due to the larger bullet diameter, the case neck diameter was increased from .347 in the Balle M & D to .357 in the Balle N.  The longer length and larger diameter of the Balle N bullet and case neck necessitated the re-cutting of the chamber to give the new round the proper leade or freebore (area without rifling) and chamber clearance.   Such modified guns will have a -N marked on both the receiver and barrel where they meet.

    My rifle has the -N mark and therefore has had the chamber modification.  I have slugged the barrel (driven a slug of soft lead through the barrel to check it's diameter) and found my barrel to be .324, a nominal .001 smaller than the Balle N round which is standard.  The above photo of the 8mm Lebel rounds are from 1948 and have a maximum diameter of .325, with a case neck diameter of .357, so my carbine and rounds fit the published data concerning the Balle N round.  Unfortunately, this is the only Berthier rifle that I own and can not compare the barrel diameter of a non-N modified Berthier to confirm the .323 barrel diameter.  But there is always the future.

    As a side note, I use Lee reloading dies and checked the neck diameter of a newly resized case, the neck diameter was .324.  This would indicate that the die was designed for the Balle N round, the resized neck would be too large for the .323 diameter bullet of the Balle M & D.  In addition, Daniel Nichols (who has been a Great Help on historical info on the 8x50R Lebel) pointed out to me that a Balle N round or brass resized by dies designed to produce a Balle N spec round may not chamber in a Balle M or D firearm.   I have no hard information, but that may have been the purpose of the increase in the case neck diameter of the Balle N, to keep the new and longer round from being used in an older rifle that may not have enough freebore.  It should be remembered, a lack of freebore can lead to very dangerous chamber pressures.  I would appreciate any emails by anyone with further information on this subject.



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    Last Updated 09/10/01